回答：李红军 / 提问：蒋岳红
蒋：“艺术”对于你意味着什么？
李：这个问题我从来没有细想过。既然你这样问，我还是想想。记得91年我拿着我的一批创作小稿去见尹吉男老师，希望能得到他的指点。他看完之后除了鼓励之外，还说“画画的人可以分为两类：一类人是画不画都行；另一类人是不画画不行。我觉得你是不画画不行的那一类。”这句鼓励的话一直藏在我心中。在艺术、工作生活矛盾激烈纠结的时候，这句话就会出现在我的脑子里。事实上在96年以前我确实是老师说的那样，不画画就觉得难受。那时我好像没有明确的目的。作品能让人说一声好，参加一次展览，在杂志上发表一次，那我就相当地满足。1996年到2006年这段时间没有做作品，但心里很难受，回想起来也有年龄、大环境、家庭、单位等因素的影响。直到2006年回美院读研我才找回了过去的感觉。有人说对于艺术家而言，艺术是“一种信仰”、“艺术是毒品”。我很赞同，也品尝到了它的味道，并且上了瘾。还有一种观点说“艺术是一种职业”，我想这也是近20年的事情。20年前中国职业艺术家很少。对于像我这种身在国家体制与社会之间游离不定人来说，职业化只能是一个梦想。因为我是一个舍不得的人，是一个贪婪的家伙。在职业的选择上，我尝试过画画、种地、木工、中医。最后好多机缘不但使我从事了最初喜欢的事情，还让我吃上了商品粮，端上了国家的铁饭碗。当然最幸运的是从事的艺术工作能独立地自由地通过作品表达自己的奇思异想。个人的生存价值因此也能得到最大限度的实现。我觉得做艺术很好。
蒋：做一件作品时，你通常都会从哪儿开始？
李：过去的民间工匠做一件“作品”，一般是首先考虑它的实用性以及主顾的意图，然后才设计制作。但是艺术从生活中分离以后，开始了去实用性，开始将物体精神化、观念化。艺术的自主性、视野的广阔性，媒介的广泛性等等，使得创作方法发生了变化。近几年好像有一种描述艺术家创作方法的一组词语——一种是“从观念入手”，即先有观念，然后寻找对应的材料媒介和语言，最后完成作品，即使对某种材料的语言不熟悉，也可以找别人制作。艺术家只负责观念；一种是“从材料入手”，即先掌握一种材料语言，在此基础上寻求对应的观念表达，但受语言的限制，所能触及的观念不是漫无边际的。这两种方法都有所长。而我基本上是属于后者。我觉得艺术家不管在方法上如何发展，但他始终要借助材料语言或者接触物体来呈现自己的想法。艺术语言的物质特性，基本上确立了艺术家的工匠身份。我所选择的方法，不但我自己能够控制，而且也能从中体会到材料语言在限制中延伸的魅力和观念扩展的快乐。这其中繁复的制作过程中所显现的劳动精神，使我感到心里很踏实。
蒋：能说说那些你知道的关于“纸”的故事吗？
李：蔡伦造纸的故事？这都知道。但我对我们县文家坡乡寺坡村王曹继洗纸的故事很感兴趣，王先生是县里远近闻名的奇人。他是位农民知识分子，整天练功修行，饱览古代阴阳学说。他有一种修善方式就是“洗纸”。这是他将传统的“惜纸”习俗转化为个人的修行方式。他每天早上起来就背一背篓去小学捡纸，包括学校厕所（旱厕）中的手纸，这些手纸都是写过字的作业本上撕下来的纸。他捡完之后就去河里一张张洗干净，晾干、理平压在炕席下边。然后在上边书写毛笔字，最后在神龛前烧掉这些纸。他不但自己捡纸而且遇上求签问卦、治病、寻物、安床、合婚、选择吉日的村妇，从来不收任何费用，只是要求他们捡纸给他作为回报。这个故事我曾经讲给吕胜中老师和徐冰老师听，他们都很感兴趣。两位老师慧眼，这个故事中洗纸行为方法和精神在他们的作品中得到了转换和持续地延伸。
蒋： “纸”对于你意味着什么？
李：纸从发明以来始终在人类文化中始终占有重要位置，是人类知识积累传播的重要载体。而对我个人而言最早感受到纸还是被拴在炕窑的时候。窑洞上的窗户都是唐式的条格窗，窗户上糊着雪白的粉连纸。这也是在白天里，窑洞中唯一透亮的地方。每格上边都贴有猫狗花草内容的红色剪纸。顶部还留有烟格，烟格中用纸粘起来的纸葫芦，不断的旋转，两只左右旋转的葫芦就是我眼前唯一的活物。到了冬天也就是腊月二十三之前窗户上的纸就会变黄破碎，北风一刮巴巴巴地响，还挺吓人。母亲就会用头巾袖筒去堵上那些地方。腊月二十三当天母亲又会如期换上一张雪白的粉连纸，再精心地把这张纸打扮一番。
上了小学就与纸接触比较多了，和其他孩子一样我也用写过的纸擦屁股。开始学画的时候只能买一张4分钱的纸，村上的合作社（商店）只有这种纸。
1976年村里举办阶级斗争教育展览馆，画连环画的时候才接触到了白报纸、水彩纸、素描纸。当时拿上这些纸，我真的不敢在上边轻易地画。
其实对纸有些认识还是1985年文化馆征集民间剪纸的时候，剪纸中丰富的造型，剪刀与纸接触后钢铁般的刀痕，都使我激动不已。在我与做纸扎和糊花灯艺人的接触中，看到那些彩纸在他们手中通过折叠、拉、压粘贴，就会成为一片逼真的荷花瓣或者牡丹叶。让你感觉纸确实很神奇。
1987年到中央美院进修，第一单元的课程就是吕胜中老师的剪纸课——单剪、折叠、换堂子、正负形、染色等等。吕(胜中）老师带我进入了中国剪纸艺术的造型与语言系统，改变了我认识的角度和深度。在他的指导下我写了一本剪纸法的书，那也是我关于纸的第一部著作。
2006年读研期间，我对木头和农具（综合材料）很感兴趣，但再三思考还是选择了自己熟悉的纸作为自己的媒介。我觉得传统纸材中还有继续发掘的可能性；而且传统纸材与现代的电子数字技术的结合，将会对纸材技术语言的延伸会产生深远的影响。从目前的创作实践的情况来看，我觉得我对纸的选择是比较适合我的。
蒋：选择白纸的理由是什么？
李：白色它确实是一种符号。在西方人那是纯洁、永恒和高贵的象征。白色是被用于婚礼服的颜色。在中国，白色代表西方（方位）、白虎、白金、秋季等。白色是祭祀的主色调，除了象征清白与永恒之外更是“孝”的象征。
虽然如此，白色相比形象符号来说，显得单纯一些。在过去的绘画和装置中我使用过毛主席像、书和包括传统艺术中的牡丹石榴等等。但当我进入多层立体剪纸实验的时候，我放弃了使用流行符号的方式。我就想着彻底回到艺术本身，揭去作品的表皮和标签，甚至题目，使作品向内敛的方向发展，让作品说话，观念是以蒸腾或者辐射的方式传递给观众。
当然纸的颜色很丰富，也很好看。在以后我肯定会用各种色纸做一些实验，白色只是我阶段性的一个选择。
蒋：在你看来，字纸和白纸的区别是什么？
李：从材料属性角度来说，白纸和书写过或经过印刷的有文字或带有图像的纸都属于人工化的材料，而且二者均有文化符号特征。白纸相对字纸而言，符号化特征显得更为隐性。在书写者或现代人的眼里白色的纸只是一种材料，称其为“耗材”。字纸的文化符号特征是显性的，一张报纸，一张图画、一张照片、一本书都有详细而具体的形象和内容，这些符号明确的指向性便成了艺术家的切入点，或者“画眼”。所以说，自现成品成为艺术之后，现成品改造与材料转换就一直是现当代艺术最为流行的一种方法。这种方法很自然地与西方符号学和语言学研究背景有着密切的联系。所有利用书籍、报纸包括其他现成品，通过改造、材料转换、集合创作作品，基本上都是使用的这种方法。我在1992年至1995年创作的《道•器》和《红蜘蛛》使用了文字书和现成品集合以及改造现成品的方法。
蒋：在你看来，什么样的纸是好看的？什么样的纸会让你有要改变它的冲动呢？
李：我觉得是纸都很好看，木浆的、树皮的、秸秆的、棉质的、纤维的和再生的，精细的和粗糙的，薄的和厚的。只要使用得当，都能做出不错的作品。
蒋：如果可能，你会从哪些方面来对纸进行改造呢？
李：过去， 在大部分艺术家那里当然包括我自己常常被艺术的撞车而感到苦恼，认为中西方艺术家已经穷尽了艺术的方法。现在呢，我觉得情况并不是那样的。科学技术的发展，会有更多的新材料的出现。电子化和数字化的不断普及，也会为传统材料技术和新视觉的探索与超越提供更多的可能性。
就纸而言，有着人类几千年传统艺术的资源与现当代艺术家的成果，加之现代技术手段，以及艺术家独到的生活经验，这些都有可能转换和发展为新的艺术方法。比如近年来我在分层方法的基础上，做了旋转，加减，偏移等方面的实验。接下来我可能会对色彩、镜像、雕绘、圆筒等方法做一些实验与拓展。
蒋：你希望你作品中的“纸”能给传达给人们的是一些什么样的感受？
李：人们经常说好的艺术能给人以美的享受，带来精神的娱乐与沉思。作为一个艺人的体验，我认为一件好的艺术作品，给我更多的是一种生理上的强烈反应，就像被电击的感觉。记得07年以助手的身份随吕胜中老师在英国布展。与老师一起展出的一位英国刺绣工艺师也在布展。布展十天时间，其间策展人还专门介绍过，艺术家在墙上安装大概7颗十字口的螺丝钉，每个螺丝十字口上镶嵌着一颗钻石。展区有一陈旧的长条桌，墙根放了两条脏兮兮的亚麻布。因为语言不通，我没在意。开展的那天，展厅外边正在举行开幕式。我走进这位艺术家的展区，觉得咋还不打扫展厅？那张桌子和这两块沾满了墙灰的亚麻布还在那。我先看的是那张桌子，上边是遗撒的涂料和放置涂料桶的痕迹，再仔细看那些痕迹是用“螺钿”的方法制作的。接着我就很紧张的去看地上那两块沾满了墙灰，有些地方发霉的亚麻布。当我掀开一角的时候，头就嗡的一下，蹲在地上几分钟就没站得起来，因为亚麻布上的痕迹使用刺绣做的。心里埋怨了好长时间，没有别的，只恨自己笨啊！研究了几十年中国民间工艺，“螺钿”、“刺绣”是中国固有的手工技艺，况且我的研究生课题就是“中国传统刺绣技法”。这件作品让我思想了很久很多。首先他为观众供了一个新的艺术角度，为观众和艺术家展示了艺术创造的元素离我们很近，就在我们的生活中，日常的劳动中，有时候近得常常紧贴着每一个人的肌肤。哪怕是几千年来那些被先辈推至高峰的古老技艺，也同样潜藏着成为当代艺术的契机。这位工艺师利用材质转换的方法，在营造一个时间空间的过程中，给我的感受很深。佩服！
我偏爱“智慧型”的或者叫“智性型”的艺术作品。这也是我努力追求的艺术方向。纸和每一个现代人的关系就像自己的手臂。纸是人们最熟悉的材料之一，看书，玩扑克，卷纸、折叠信件、整理文件、整理书籍、数点钞票、粘贴海报、发放传单等都是司空见惯的行为和经验。所以，我现在的作品除了镂刻之外主要是从以上这些经验中寻找方法和切入点。我想通过我的作品，让观众能为我将一般的生存经验升华为艺术而发出感叹 “这人挺聪明！”。这就是我希望作品传达给观众的感受。
The 9 Answers about Into Papers
A:Li Hongjun Q:Jiang Yuehong
Q: What does “art” mean to you?
1A:I have never thought it over before. Well, since you ask it, let me think .Well, once I brought a bunch of my drafts to Professor Yin Ji-nan for his advice in 1991, he had a look of them and encouraged me, besides, he said: “There are two kinds of painters: one kind are those who needn’t paint always; another kind are those who must paint always, I think you are one of those who must paint always”. Since then, I have learnt these courageous words by heard. Whenever my art practice severely twists with my regular routine in career and life, these words will always turn up in my mind. Frankly, I had lived as he said before 1996, feeling quite awful if I had painted nothing. At that time I seemed living aimlessly, easily satisfied if anyone had praised my pieces once, or my pieces were once exhibited or published somewhere. From 1996 to 2006, I didn’t paint, but I did feel very awful. When I look back now, I think it may be affected by my age, the social environment and the issues of my family and working places, etc., at that time. I didn’t find back my past ambition in art practice until I went back to the Central Academy of Art for my postgraduate study. Someone says art is “a belief”, “art is kind of a drug”. I do agree to such a comment for the sake of an artist. I have tasted it, being addicted as well. There is another view saying “art is a kind of profession”. I think it is a recent view only for the last twenty years. Twenty years ago, there were few professional artists in China, and, to a person like me who lingered around between within the state-owned facility system and out of it in society, being a professional artist could be a dream only, as I am a person hard to give up, a desirous fellow. For my career experiences, I have worked as a painter, a farmer, a woodworker, a herbalist doctor, and, at last, lots of lucks have led me to the career I originally enjoyed, allowing me access to the state-supplied grains and the “iron bowl” of the state. Of course the best luck is that the art practice I engage in allows me to express my fantastic ideas freely and independently via my pieces, and maximizes the value of my personal existence, so I feel taking a job in art is very good.
Q: What's the first point when you create a work?
2A:The artisans in the past would first concern the practicability and what the customers wanted before they designed and made a piece. However, since art was separated from life, it began apart from its practicability spiritualizing the objects with certain concepts. The independence of art practices, the extensity of views, the university of media and others bring out changes in art methods. Recently there has been a group of phrases describing the artists’ methods in practice: “one method is to begin with a concept”, which means that a concept comes first, to find material media and languages corresponding to it next, and a piece completed at last. Even though the artist doesn’t know the language of certain material very well, he still can have others make it out and he is only responsible for the concept. “Another method is to start with material”, which means that mastering the language of certain material comes first, based on which searching a corresponding concept follows. This method lets the artists capable of controlling a practice but restricted to the language limit and unable to touch any boundless concepts. Each method gets its own strength. I’m the one with the second method. I think, no matter how an artist develops a method, he shall always use certain material language or specific objects to present his idea. The physical property of language applied in art basically decides the identity of an artist as a workman. The methods I choose enable me not only to control my practice but also to enjoy the charm of spreading the restricted material expression and the pleasure of extending my ideas. The engagement in working out such a complicate production makes me contented and sure inside.
Q: Could you tell us those stories about “paper” ?
3A:The story of Cai Lun’s Invention of Paper-making? It is well-known to everyone. I’m very interested in a story of how Wang Caoji washed paper, which took place in the Chipo Village of the Wenjiapo County in my hometown. Mr. Wang is a strange figure well-known in the town. He is a farmer-born intellect, practicing his skills and cultivating himself spiritually everyday. He is a master of the ancient Yin-Yang theory. “Washing paper” is one of his practices, one way of his personal cultivation which is transformed from the traditional custom of “cherishing paper” by him. Every morning, whenever he gets up, he would carry a basket on his back, go to a primary school and pick up paper, even the papers used for toilet in the school toilets. Those toilet papers are the papers torn off from used exercise books. After the collection, he would go to a river, wash clean those collected papers one after another, and then dry them, flatten them, keep them pressed under the mat on a kang ( a heated brick bed common in North China). Then, he would use them to practice his calligraphy, and in the end burn them out before a shrine. He not only picks up paper himself, moreover, he asks those countrywomen to do so for him in return instead of charging them money whenever they ask him to help their begging lots, asking for an interpretation of divinatory symbols or a medical treatment, seeking any lost object, placing a bed, holding a marriage or selecting a lucky date. I once told the story to Professor Lv Shengzhong and Professor Xu Bin who are both interested in it very much. They both have their insights of it. The methods and spirit borne in the practice of paper-washing have been converted and persistently extended in their works.
Q: What does “paper” mean to you?
4A:Since its invention, paper has always been playing a key role in human culture, as a main carrier for accumulation and communication of human knowledge. As for myself, it is when I was tied up to a kang inside a residential cave as a baby that I first got known of paper. The cave window was checked in the Tang-dynasty style, where the cases are pasted with a thin snow-white paper.It is the only place allowing the lights through into the cave in the daytime. On each case were pasted some red paper-cuts shapes as cats, dogs, flowers and bushes. There were two cases made on the top for air through, where the paper gourds were pasted and keep on revolving. The two revolving gourds were the only moving objects before my eyes at that time. When it was in winter before every lunar December 23, the paper over the whole window would turn yellow and broken and the North wind blowing up would cause some loud voices, pretty shocking. My mum would use her headbands or movable sleeves to block those holes. On the right day of every lunar December 23, as scheduled, my mum would change a new snow-white paper and decorate it elaborately.
During my primary schooling, I got to paper fairly often. Like other kids, I also used certain used exercise papers wiping my ass. When I started learning how to paint, I just bought paper priced 4 cent per piece. The village store only sold the kind. In 1976, when I took part in the Educational Exhibition of Class Struggles, I first got known of newsprint, watercolor paper and sketch paper for painting. When I got these kinds of paper at that time, I even didn’t dare to paint easily on them. It is in 1985 when I was in charge of collecting folk paper-cuts in the local culture hall that I started learning about paper. The abundant patterns of paper-cuts and the steely traces cut by the scissors through a paper did make me excited always. When I got to those artisans who made paper flowers and paper lamps, I really felt it amazing in watching those colorful papers being folded, plucked, pressed and pasted into a lifelike lotus leaf or peony leaf. In 1987, I went to Central Academy of Art for my advanced study. The first lesson is on paper-cuts lectured by Professor Lv Shengzhong– what is odd-cutting, folding, exchanging, shaping in positive & negative, coloring, etc. Professor Lv led me into the shaping and language system of Chinese paper-cutting art, altering the viewpoint and depth of my learning about it. Under his instruction, I wrote a book about the skills of paper-cutting, which is also my first work about paper. In 2006 when I took my postgraduate study, I started interested in wood and farm implements (synthesis material) very much; however, after a serious consideration, I decided to choose paper that I am familiar with as my medium. I think that it is still certain possible for us to keep on digging out the value of paper as traditional material for art , and to combine paper as the traditional material with the modern computer technology will place a far-reaching influence on materialization of paper property. From the view of the art practices today, I think my choice of paper suits me relatively.
Q: Why do you choose white paper?
5A:White is indeed a symbol, which stands for purity, foreverness and nobleness in the West world, where white is the right color for wedding dresses. In China, white stands for the west in direction, White Tiger in sky, silver or autumn, and so on. White is the key tone for memorial rituals. It is not only a symbol of cleanness and foreverness but also a symbol of “filial piety”.
However, white is relatively simpler than visual symbols. In the past, I applied the image of Chairman Mao, books, some traditional Chinese art symbols such as peony flowers, fruits of guava and the others to my paintings or art installations. When I have engaged in the practice of multi-layered cubic paper-cutting, I give up those prevailing symbols. What I really want is an absolute return to art itself, taking away the cover and label of a production, even its subject, letting itself moving forward into its own inside, which means let the art piece speak so as to raise or radiate the ideas to its audiences. Of course, the colors of paper are very rich and all look very nice. In the future, I am sure I will use papers of various colors for certain practices. The white color is just a choice of mine for this phase.
Q: What do you think makes letter paper and white paper different?
6A:From the view of material property, white paper and letter paper, used or printed, or graphic paper, are artificial materials, and they are symbols of culture in feature. Compared with letter paper, white paper is a symbol of culture more implicit. In the eyes of a writer or a modern, white paper is just a material, which is called “material for consuming”. A letter paper is an explicit symbol of culture, for example, a newspaper, a drawing, a photo or a book is loaded with detailed and specific images and texts. The clear designation of these signs becomes a cut-in point for an artist, or “the painting eye”. So, since the finished products have been an art, there has been a method of altering the finished products. This method is naturally tied up with the Western researches in symbolism and linguistics. All the pieces produced by altering, transforming or aggregating those books, newspapers or other finished products mainly come out in such a manner. It is also one most prevailing method in the modern art. My two works “ Dao•Utensils” and “Red Spiders” done from 1992 to 1995 were produced by the method of aggregating and altering books and finished products.
Q: What kind of paper do you think looks nice? What kind may stimulate you to alter it?
7A:I think all kinds of paper look beautiful: paper made of timber mixture, cortex, stalk, cotton, fiber, or it is recycled; refined or coarse; thin or thick paper. As long as they are employed properly, there will be no bad production.
Q: If possible, in what aspects will you alter paper?
8A:In the past, the majority of artists, of course including me, usually felt worried by the crashes in art, considering all the art methods had been used up by the previous Chinese and Western artists. But now, I think it isn’t true. With the development of science and technology, new materials will come out more and more. The constant innovations of electronic digitals will also bring out more possible chances for us to explore and go beyond the traditional technology of material applications and new visions.
As for paper, there are rich resources contributed by human traditional art over several thousand years and fruits achieved by the contemporary artists, plus the modern technical methods and the exclusive life experiences of artists themselves. All these could probably be transformed or developed to brand new methods in art, for instance, I have done certain experiments such as revolving, adding or reducing, drifting, etc. based on the layer-splitting method. Afterwards, I may be going to do certain experiments and developments on colors, images, engraved arts, cylinders and so on.
Q: What do you want the audiences will experience from the papers applied in your works?
9A:People often say that a good work can offer one an appreciation of beauty, a mental pleasure and meditation. From my own experience as an artist, I think a good work, instead, brings me certain sharp physiological reaction, just like an electroshock. In 2007, I remember I escorted Professor Lv Shengzhong as his assistant to the U.K. for his exhibition arrangement. There was a British embroidery artist who was to co-exhibit with Professor Lv also there at the same time for his exhibition arrangement. During the ten-day-long arrangement period, the exhibition planner even intendedly came and told that the artist was installing into the wall 7 screws of which the tops are cross-shaped, and on each top was studded a diamond. He set an old rectangle table in his exhibit room and placed two dirty linens over the wall corners. Because I speak no English, so we couldn’t talk, and thus I didn’t pay much attention to his doing. On the opening day, as there was the opening ceremony holding outside, I went into his exhibiting room and doubted why he hadn’t opened his room, watching that the table and the two linen pieces full of dusts from the wall were still there. I first had a look of that table, on its surface there were some remains of dopes scattered and kind of a trace left by a dope barrel bottom. When I had my second look carefully, I found all the marks were made by “spiral figuration”; then I intensely looked at the two dusty linens with certain parts already musty. When I opened one piece, I was shocked in the head and squatted down there for several minutes, hardly to stand up, since the linens were lined by embroidering. My heart was filled up with regrets for a long time, nothing else but for my silly head! I have studied Chinese folk crafts for decades, and, as it is well-known, “spiral figuration” and “embroidery” are both Chinese inherent handcrafts; moreover, my postgraduate research project is on “the Traditional Skills of Chinese Traditional Embroidery”. His work has drawn me into a deep consideration quite long and quit a lot. He first offers his audiences a new art viewpoint, showing his audiences and other artists that the attributes for art creativity are very close to us, existing in our life, our daily works, and sometimes so close as clung to the skins of everyone. It tells that even the ancient skills which have been developed to their supreme levels by our forefathers over thousands of years are still bearing chances to become modern arts as well. This master is creating a spatio-temporal course in transforming materials that impresses me very much. Fairly admire him! I favor the “wisdom-type” or “witty” arts. It is also what I am trying my best to run after. Paper related to every modern being is just like his arm. Paper is one most familiar material to everyone: reading a book, playing cards, rolling tissues, folding a mail, sorting files, packing books, counting bills, plastering a poster, providing a leaflet, and so on are our quotidian behaviors and experiences. So, the methods and cut-in points for my current works are mainly originated from these experiences besides the application of engraving. What I expect is that the audiences would excitedly praise: “The man is very smart!” when they recognize my capability of sublimating a common subsistent experience to a kind of art. This is what I want the audiences would experience from my works.
(Translated by Jiang Wenhui)